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theflyingsikh
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Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 551
Location: United Kingdom
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 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:31 am Post subject: Ethiopian Dreamliner Catches Fire at Heathrow |
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Source:
http://news.sky.com/story/1115054/heathrow-dreamliner-plane-catches-fire
I was coming in on the VS 301 from Del this afternoon. ETA at Lhr was 17:42 but we were diverted to LGW. Landed back into Lhr at 20:20 approx.
Crew were great!
On deplaning plenty of ground agents were available to assist connecting pax.
Saw the ET 787 in question. Parked next to the fire station while taxing to the gate.
A friend was coming into Lhr on the VS 658 from Acc and these guys were diverted to Marseille scheduled arrival was 18:00 hrs but they arrived at approx 22:15
Dreamliner nah Night : ( mareliner
Lol!
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Nimish
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India
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airbus340
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Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 465
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Ethiopian Dreamliner Catches Fire at Heathrow |
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| theflyingsikh wrote: | Source:
http://news.sky.com/story/1115054/heathrow-dreamliner-plane-catches-fire
I was coming in on the VS 301 from Del this afternoon. ETA at Lhr was 17:42 but we were diverted to LGW. Landed back into Lhr at 20:20 approx.
Crew were great!
On deplaning plenty of ground agents were available to assist connecting pax.
Saw the ET 787 in question. Parked next to the fire station while taxing to the gate.
A friend was coming into Lhr on the VS 658 from Acc and these guys were diverted to Marseille scheduled arrival was 18:00 hrs but they arrived at approx 22:15
Dreamliner nah Night : ( mareliner
Lol! |
I am glad you enjoyed your VS experience . The DEL connects on the late night EWR / JFK and hence has a lot of connecting pax . On an avergae upwards of 100 every day if not more .
They made their connections as everything leaving LHR was delayed too .
Hope you enjoyed the A330 and the new IFE . |
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The_Goat
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Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 3260
Location: South of France
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:19 am Post subject: |
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I guess we have the first 787 write off here. That damage looks fairly extensive. May not be viable to repair it.
Sad, more problems for Boeing!
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ameya
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Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 3671
Location: Pune,Maharashtra
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| That's the damage because it is a plastic plane ? |
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Nimish
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Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 9757
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Forget about the OZ 772 episode - that seems to be a case of good hardware, but bad software (pilots). This seems to be a clear case with the hardware and Boeing has a lot of explaining to do. I wonder if this will lead to a second grounding of all 787s worldwide - because an "affinity to burst into flames at 25C ambient temperature" is not a great attribute for this a/c!
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ameya
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Posts: 3671
Location: Pune,Maharashtra
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Nimish wrote: | | Forget about the OZ 772 episode - that seems to be a case of good hardware, but bad software (pilots). This seems to be a clear case with the hardware and Boeing has a lot of explaining to do. I wonder if this will lead to a second grounding of all 787s worldwide - because an "affinity to burst into flames at 25C ambient temperature" is not a great attribute for this a/c! |
Yes. Completely agree. That means a blessing in disguise for AI ? when BHX and SYD / MEL will be postponed ? |
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ssbmat
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 1710
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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It seems to be quite a serious issue. One of the theories is that a coffee maker in the galley overheated after being left unattended. The galley was also apparently burnt. But isnt there any fire protection onboard ? Does the plane skin not have any fire retardant properties ?
This seems to have burnt just like a good old mixer grinder would or any plastic machine with an electrical motor.
And what if some kind of fire happens when in flight ? I think the Dreamliner has too many incidents .
The FAA/JAA authorities have bungled up in the certification of this type..
I mean, other planes also had EIS issues, but none relating to electrical/fire that I recall.
Manufacturers are pushing the limits and regulatory authorities are lagging behind the curve. We learnt a great deal about commercial Jet aircraft in general, the "hard" way in the fifties and sixties. I hope we dont have to deal with CRP airframes in the same manner. |
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iah87
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Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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On the contrary this is bad news for AI. If 787 is grounded again, AI will be forced juggle their schedules and any hope for cutting losses on some of the routes are now gone.
Plus they cannot trust 787 completely and have to retain some of the other aircraft for a lot longer. |
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aeroblogger
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Location: PVD, HYD, IXE
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Another setback for the 7Late7 DreamLemon. 
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sumantra
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Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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Location: New Delhi
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| iah87 wrote: | | Plus they cannot trust 787 completely and have to retain some of the other aircraft for a lot longer. |
...the other aircraft means the guzzler B77Ls, and the profitable, but PTV-less old-but-well-maintained A332s, which AI having only two of them, cannot afford a large cache of spares, in addition to having a small pilot base for the type, since most of the senior A332 captains have transitioned to the B788 cockpit. AI have held onto both types as a back-up, I guess, and have been cautious with the B788 routings, not putting them all-out on the longer routes - right from the beginning. On a different (and personal) note, I have yet B788 trip looming up - my success rate with the type has been a poor 1 in 4 tries - all of it prior to the January grounding.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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vin2basketball
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Joined: 09 Mar 2010
Posts: 58
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| sumantra wrote: | | iah87 wrote: | | Plus they cannot trust 787 completely and have to retain some of the other aircraft for a lot longer. |
...the other aircraft means the guzzler B77Ls, and the profitable, but PTV-less old-but-well-maintained A332s, which AI having only two of them, cannot afford a large cache of spares, in addition to having a small pilot base for the type, since most of the senior A332 captains have transitioned to the B788 cockpit. AI have held onto both types as a back-up, I guess, and have been cautious with the B788 routings, not putting them all-out on the longer routes - right from the beginning. On a different (and personal) note, I have yet B788 trip looming up - my success rate with the type has been a poor 1 in 4 tries - all of it prior to the January grounding.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
Mind you the 77L is highly profitable for ET (go figure) and DL,so its about picking the right missions.
This isn't the same as the battery issue -- Boeing, NTSB, AAIB, Ethiopian are all treating this as a one-off event. Until more info emerges, that's how I'd look at it.
| aeroblogger wrote: | | Another setback for the 7Late7 DreamLemon. Rolling Eyes |
That's needlessly inflammatory. Every aircraft with such revolutionary tech goes through teething issues, including the A380 (wing ribs 5 years later and lots of problems early on), 777, 747 and onwards.
Boeing need to be careful and make sure that the 787 doesn't turn into another DC-10 from a PR perspective
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sumantra
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Posts: 4685
Location: New Delhi
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| vin2basketball wrote: | | Mind you the 77L is highly profitable for ET (go figure) and DL,so its about picking the right missions. |
...and right now, there is neither the market for AI in terms of routes, nor the fuel economics (or its own cash counters, for that matter) to go bullish on new routes. AI didn't want 8 B77Ls in the first place, when they ordered them - when the world economy was in a different state. From what I know, AI would rather have the planes sunning on tarmacs at DEL and BOM rather than lose money further, by putting them on unviable routes.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
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ssbmat
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 1710
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| Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| vin2basketball wrote: | | sumantra wrote: | | iah87 wrote: | | Plus they cannot trust 787 completely and have to retain some of the other aircraft for a lot longer. |
...the other aircraft means the guzzler B77Ls, and the profitable, but PTV-less old-but-well-maintained A332s, which AI having only two of them, cannot afford a large cache of spares, in addition to having a small pilot base for the type, since most of the senior A332 captains have transitioned to the B788 cockpit. AI have held onto both types as a back-up, I guess, and have been cautious with the B788 routings, not putting them all-out on the longer routes - right from the beginning. On a different (and personal) note, I have yet B788 trip looming up - my success rate with the type has been a poor 1 in 4 tries - all of it prior to the January grounding.
Cheers, Sumantra. |
Mind you the 77L is highly profitable for ET (go figure) and DL,so its about picking the right missions.
This isn't the same as the battery issue -- Boeing, NTSB, AAIB, Ethiopian are all treating this as a one-off event. Until more info emerges, that's how I'd look at it.
| aeroblogger wrote: | | Another setback for the 7Late7 DreamLemon. Rolling Eyes |
That's needlessly inflammatory. Every aircraft with such revolutionary tech goes through teething issues, including the A380 (wing ribs 5 years later and lots of problems early on), 777, 747 and onwards.
Boeing need to be careful and make sure that the 787 doesn't turn into another DC-10 from a PR perspective |
While all airplanes have teething problems, this is more of a child rushing to the hospital for possible life-threatening infections from time to time.
I dont recall any of the other types ,esp since the 80s, having such major issues. The Airbus FBW was under the cloud for some time though. But as aviation advances, it is not necessary to repeat mistakes of the past is it?
I still think Boeing rushed into the 787 somewhat, right from the design to the complex assembly/logistics.
I hope this airplane does not become another Comet-1.
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The_Goat
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Location: South of France
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| Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| ssbmat wrote: |
While all airplanes have teething problems, this is more of a child rushing to the hospital for possible life-threatening infections from time to time.
I dont recall any of the other types ,esp since the 80s, having such major issues. The Airbus FBW was under the cloud for some time though. But as aviation advances, it is not necessary to repeat mistakes of the past is it?
I still think Boeing rushed into the 787 somewhat, right from the design to the complex assembly/logistics.
I hope this airplane does not become another Comet-1.
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That's a rather exaggerated comparison. The Comet I had a major design fault which led to at least three airplanes crashing in quick succession. The 787 is definitely not in the same league.
and EVERY airplane, particularly the ones featuring newer technologies, has had teething problems. The A320 was a nightmare for its early operators (and I'm not talking about just the FBW)..didn't stop it becoming one of the most successful airplanes in history.
And the 747 too was notorious for its engine problems early on. Didn't stop that from becoming one of the most successful airliners in history either. and how about the A380 with all its wiring problems and exploding engines?
Besides, it is not even clear whether the ET incident was due to the airplane's fault, so let's not go overboard and start blaming the aircraft.
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I don't know which is the more pampered bunch : AI's widebodies (the aunties) or Jet's widebodies (the planes).
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sabya99
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Posts: 1399
Location: New Jersey/CCU
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| Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Comet-1 accidents led to design of new welding technology and window shape design for commercial aircrafts. Also aluminum alloys used now a days are very different from Comet-1.But I think Mr.Goat is right, it is still not clear who is responsible for this fire; aircraft design or maintenance crews!
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theflyingsikh
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Posts: 551
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:33 am Post subject: Re: Ethiopian Dreamliner Catches Fire at Heathrow |
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| airbus340 wrote: |
I am glad you enjoyed your VS experience . The DEL connects on the late night EWR / JFK and hence has a lot of connecting pax . On an avergae upwards of 100 every day if not more .
They made their connections as everything leaving LHR was delayed too .
Hope you enjoyed the A330 and the new IFE . |
There were loads of pax connecting on to the EWR flight. Cabin Crew made announcements specifically for these pax to meet the ground agents on deplaning for quick assistance. Pax on the VS 25 had to stay overnight in London.
The A330 is a nice aircraft to fly on. IFE was nice although the new Upper Class on this aircraft look great they are slightly narrow in comparison to those on the VS A340-600s. Yet the seats are very comfy. Food was fantastic (usually the case departing Delhi) menu cards and and feedback forms in Hindi too. Virgin try real hard and always manage to deliver a very pleasant experience.
On a different note. I received an email from VS a few days ago mentioning some changes to their FFP. Where in all Economy class tickets will now earn 100% miles.
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Nimish
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Any more on the reasons behind the ET 787 flame-up? I've not been following up and hoped to see some updates by now...
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vin2basketball
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Nimish,
These are the facts that we know:
http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/2013/07/opinion-after-ethiopian-airlines.html
| Quote: |
Around 16:30 B.S.T, the Ethiopian 787, registration ET-AOP, was observed with smoke billowing throughout the aircraft. Fire response crews at Heathrow rushed to the aircraft and doused it with fire retardant foam from at least 3 vehicles
There was significant smoke/fire damage to the carbon fiber reinforced polymer (CFRP) skin of the Ethiopian 787, in the crown of the fuselage just forward of door 4 (the aft door). The damage was in a different location than that caused by the issues with the 787’s lithium-ion batteries that caused the Dreamliner to be grounded worldwide for more than 3 months. In fact, the British Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) has ruled out a direct causal relationship between the 787’s batteries and/or auxiliary power unit (APU) and the fire damage. The graphic below from Boeing shows that the damage from the 787 batteries occurred in a different location entirely.
The 787 was on Fixed Electrical Ground Power (FEGP) at the time of the incident. A report in the Financial Times quoted an Ethiopian Airlines source as stating that a problem had been observed in the aircraft’s air-conditioning system, and that “sparks were observed,” but this report has not been corroborated anywhere else. The 787’s aft ceiling contains Remote Data Concentrators (RDCs) and Remote Power Distribution Units (RPDUs) with significant amounts of wire, and there is a galley station (but no crew rest) beneath the section of the roof where damage occurred.
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), European Air and Space Agency (EASA), AAIB, Boeing, and Ethiopian are all investigating the incident. The damage represents a massive aircraft on ground (AOG) challenge, and a good testing case for composites repair, which presents its own set of challenges (find more information on composite repair here). The cause of the damage is unknown at this point. |
That's pretty much it; everything else is speculation.
I have been following the story since its inception here: http://airchive.com/blog/2013/07/12/analysis-boeing-787-dreamliner-in-the-hot-seat-again-after-fire-at-heathrow-airport/
And there is plenty of discussion as to the various causes of the fire with lots of graphics - I'll post some text here, but I'm not sure how to post the graphics
| Quote: |
On fixing composites:
Arguably, the biggest risk of all is that the structurally sound fuselage that emerges newly built from the aircraft factory can have its integrity progressively degraded over a history of successive repairs. No-one knows how many repairs of various types a fuselage can sustain before its strength is so compromised that there is a risk of failure – at worst an explosive decompression at altitude. The dreadful consequences of this became all too evident to British planemaker DeHavilland at the dawn of the passenger jet age more than half a century ago. In that case it was metal fatigue that led to the catastrophic loss of several of DH’s boldly conceived Comet aircraft. Admittedly, a composites failure is likely to be more progressive and less catastrophic, though with high-flying pressurised fuselages one can never be quite sure.
On the burning of composites
The material burns in a manner similar to a charring material, in that the carbon fibers comprise most of its mass. The composite burns primarily from the vaporization of its resin. It can ignite with a pilot flame after preheating at a low heat flux. When it burns, the resin vapor is forced out of the fiber pores, and pressure causes the material to swell to over twice its volume. In most all cases studied, the composite maintained its rigidity, but its structural strength was not examined after degradation. The material appears to maintain homogeneity in swelling. The fibers create an insulating, char-like structure that causes a reduction in the internal heating, and consequently, the burning rate drops in time. As the burning rate drops, extinction can naturally occur due to insufficient heating. As is common of charring materials, external heat flux is required to sustain burning and flame spread. It should be noted that the carbon fiber can also oxidize under high-temperature conditions, and this was observed even at low heat fluxes. Furthermore, the properties in this report pertain primarily to the characteristics of the resin material, as the carbon fibers are essentially inert.
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There's more there.
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